EP7 Jess Martin - Lawyer by Day, Rom-Com Author by night.

Unearth the secrets of juggling multiple roles with my guest, Jessica Martin, a lawyer and an author who has penned two books. Jessica’s story is about balancing motherhood, a demanding profession, and her lifelong passion for writing.

Jessica reveals the process of writing her books, from finding an agent on Twitter to the intricate process of editing and publishing. She unpacks her strategies for staying organized, meeting deadlines, and maintaining character consistency. Furthermore, Jessica introduces us to her journey through the often daunting world of book marketing, focusing on bookstore visits and the importance of supporting indie bookstores.

In the last leg of our conversation, we delve into the digital realm with Jessica, exploring how she navigates the world of online reviews. Giving us insight into her experiences with choosing a narrator for the audiobook and also the book cover creation, Jessica talks about how she manages her social media presence and how she uses it to connect with her fans. Our discussion wraps up with a chat about her books 'For the Love of the Bard' and 'The Dane of My Existence,' and a peek into the possibility of these works maybe someday, being adapted for the screen!

To keep up with Jessica's adventures:
     https://jessicamartinbooks.com/

Instagram:  seejesswritebooks
    
If you aren't able to visit a local bookstore:

https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jessica-Martin/author/B09HSR2YVG?ref=ap_rdr&store_ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/%22A+Bard%27s+Rest+Romance%22?Ntk=P_Series_Title&Ns=P_Series_Number&Ntx=mode+matchall

Finnleigh would like to remind everyone that a 5-star rating from each of you would be a huge push for the podcast in the algorithms that suggest podcast to listeners.  Please take a second to give us a 5-star rating when you get the chance!  Thanks so much!

Transcript

Scott: 1:24

And a guest today is Jessica Martin. She's a lawyer by trade, a writer by choice and a complete smartass. By all other accounts that's a self-described complete smartass, not my words. Based in the suburban wilds of Boston, jess shares her life with a finance geek, small sass-based human and a pair of dogs named after James Bond characters. She is currently an amazing author who has now put out her second book, and we're psyched to have her here. Jessica Martin, welcome to Cardi Saves the World.

Scott: 1:51

Well thank you, happy to be here. Thank you so much for coming. So you are like an author. That's crazy.

Jessica Martin: 1:57

I'm like an author and like an attorney, both of us.

Scott: 2:00

Every attorney I know has like just a crazy life which I'm sure you do right Just like crazy lost stuff going on, and then you have time to write books and you're a mom.

Jessica Martin: 2:08

And I'm a mom. I'm a girl mom and you as a girl dad, I'm sure understand what it's like. Oh yeah, of the drama and sass that comes along with being a girl mom or a girl dad.

Scott: 2:16

It's brutal, brutal.

Jessica Martin: 2:18

It's great. It's good practice for under teens. How old? How old is your daughter now? Seven and a half.

Scott: 2:24

Seven and a half. Okay, so I have a six and a half and yeah there's just, it's a whole.

Scott: 2:29

It's incredible. So I had I don't know if this is gonna make the podcast, but I'll tell you the story so a friend of mine came down and we went during the day. We went to a couple breweries I mean Wilmington, and Wilmington has a lot of breweries my wife drove and my daughter was in the back seat. Well, yeah, I had a couple beers and I had my phone out and I was taking like selfie video when I was winking at her and she's just like giving me the eye, just stopped winking at her and she just picked her nose and wiped it on my back.

Jessica Martin: 2:54

I think that should probably be in the podcast. Yeah, all right, like wait, shut things down.

Scott: 2:59

So what did you do that for? She's like stop recording me and stop making fun of me. Wow.

Jessica Martin: 3:06

I mean, you can't argue with her methods.

Scott: 3:08

They were swift and effective, and you know I had had a couple beers of me, so I get it, you know. So so you're also a lawyer. And what was the genesis of becoming an author on top of your already crazy life?

Jessica Martin: 3:20

Yeah, so I've been a writer my whole life. It started in the fifth grade. There was a ghost writing spooky contest and the prize was this pumpkin, and I was like I'm here for it. So I wrote my first, my first spooky tale as a fifth grader. I won that pumpkin.

Scott: 3:35

Actually.

Jessica Martin: 3:36

And then I went on to thank you. I went on to write all through middle school, high school. In college I minored in creative writing. It's partially why I chose my school is that they had a really good creative writing program. And then when I got out of school I realized like two things. One, writing is really hard when you're learning writing throughout the year, so you teach you how to write these beautifully contained short stories. Nobody teaches you how to write a novel or how to stick with it or how to get a hundred thousand words down on the page, and it doesn't make any money.

Jessica Martin: 4:04

So I spent my. I spent my 20s and 30s writing on the side. But I decided to go to law school because I am a contract negotiator by trade. I love writing, I love negotiating. So every day I write technically for my job and it's always nice to kind of switch between the two, like turning it off and putting on sort of a creative lens, and then you know, turning that off and getting back into being technical. So I write all the time and I wrote sci-fi. I wrote sci-fi fiction for about six, seven years, yeah, and I was getting all these lovely rejection letters which were like we love your writing, but it's a tight market. We can't sell it. And at some point this other idea started to percolate and I thought how hard could it be to write a rom-com? The answer is it's challenging. Right Switching from genre to genre?

Scott: 4:46

I would think so.

Jessica Martin: 4:47

I have utmost respect for rom-com writers. Right and miraculously, you know, I finished this book. I couldn't believe how quickly I finished this book and I started editing it. And then I like to tell people I'm the only person on the planet that ever found their agent via a Twitter pitch. They used to have these pre-COVID would have these Twitter pitch contests and you would pitch your book in whatever 146 characters, whatever it is, and it was a very last like pitching slot of the day and I was like you know, I'm gonna go for it. I want to go for it on this. And that's how I found my agent, maggie. She's in Boston and we got in touch through the Twitter contest and, you know, about three weeks later she'd read the whole thing and she said I'm gonna sell this in the next six months.

Scott: 5:24

Really.

Jessica Martin: 5:25

I was like, oh okay, maggie, and she did. She sold it to Penguin in six months. So it was a whirlwind to have written your whole life and had no success, limited success. And then all of a sudden, you know you meet the right person, they open a door for you and you're on your way to getting a book published.

Scott: 5:39

That's amazing. That's a lot. So you said it didn't take you that long to write what's not long look like.

Jessica Martin: 5:44

Yeah, about nine months. Soup to nuts on sort of the writing and the first couple passes of editing. I'm a sort of avometer of words, like I just I get everything out there and then you read them and you're like that is something. So you go back and you edit it and I spent a lot more time in the editing phase. So I would say you know about nine to 11 months and then I polished some more. When I met Maggie we did a couple more rounds. So maybe call it 12 to 13 months to get it and then you do more editing with your editor. How do you're editing House of New York, mine's Penguin? So I would say 15, let's say 15 months all in between their different iterations, but most of that was editing.

Scott: 6:22

That's amazing and I'm sorry I failed to mention the name of the first book is For the Love of a Bard. Yes, and so that came out in 2022?

Jessica Martin: 6:30

Yes, in June it was a summer release of Beatrice.

Scott: 6:33

And then you have a sequel to it that comes out in 2023?.

Jessica Martin: 6:37

Crazy. It's out, scott. It was out on the 4th of July and it's called the Dane of my Existence. We're keeping with the Shakespearean puns here. Yes, so that one came out, and it was nice to finally be a sophomore. When your debut goes, you have no idea what to expect. You talk to your writer friends. So going through the second one was so much easier. It was just so much chiller. I knew what was coming. I knew what to expect. It was great.

Scott: 6:58

It's awesome. So can you give just a slight synopsis for the listeners? I guess both books, but break one. Break the mech down.

Jessica Martin: 7:06

Absolutely so, for the Love of the Bard is the first in the series, and when I came up with this idea for a rom-com, I started with a place, and I grew up in Massachusetts. I spent my summers in New Hampshire and so I started to think about this town and these quirky little towns that are all over New Hampshire and I thought what if there was a Shakespearean obsessed one? How fun would that be if they had a Shakespeare festival every year? I'm an English nerd, full disclosure. So that was kind of nerdy and fun. And then I started to think, well, can't just be a Shakespeare festival, right, they've got to be all in on Shakespeare. So maybe they have goofy little storefront names like measure for measure hardware or parting such sweet gelato. So then I really started to have some fun with this town. Once I had the town I started to populate it and I decided I was going to try to write a trilogy, because rom-coms they're great when they sort of carry on a couple in the series. It's one of my favorite things about rom-coms.

Jessica Martin: 7:57

So the first sister is Miranda Barnes. She is a literary agent and a writer, and she's the middle sister. She's the peacekeeper. She's incredibly snarky despite that. But she is sort of sandwiched between these two larger than life personalities. So the first book is really about her. She's coming home, she meets an old ex-flame who's now the town veterinarian, and you know he's not living in his mom's basement. He is a good-looking dude, saves puppies for a living, and so really that first right, who doesn't want a man who saves puppies for a living? So really that first book is about them sort of getting over there not so great past and they work together to put on this production of 12th night for the festival. So that's the first book.

Jessica Martin: 8:36

And then the second book is Portia. And Portia is the eldest barn sister and she hates the town In a way. Miranda loves Shakespeare. Portia has never understood the hype about Shakespeare, absolutely looks down on Shakespeare and just so happened she gets this new lawyer gig. Portia's a lawyer, no comment, and she's moving from New York to Boston to take this job and she's taking a summer sabbatical.

Jessica Martin: 9:00

So she comes home to the town fish out of water, doesn't really know what to do with herself, and then quickly becomes embroiled. There's a real estate developer in town and he's sniffing around the town's best property and, lo and behold, the town doesn't own it, like everybody thought. So it sets up this nice battles, enemies to lovers sort of the trope that they talk about. But really I think it's rivals, rivals to lovers, these two very corporatey personalities square enough for the future of the town. And what I like about it is Portia is really a villain in the first book and in this second book she's the hero. So I thought that was really fun writing Somebody you didn't care for in the first book you really rooted against. Now all of a sudden you're like ah, that's a bad. So that is the premise of the first and the second book.

Scott: 9:43

So when you started writing the first book, did you have a second book in mind, or was the? Did that kind of come organically later on?

Jessica Martin: 9:50

I had them all planned out from the beginning Three sisters, three books and I started to think about side characters. So I knew, when I was writing Portia as the villain in the first book, that she would be my starring lady in the second book. So I knew that and I knew just, I was gonna no hold back, I was gonna make her unlikable and then I was gonna flip the tables on you, which is exactly what I did in the second book.

Scott: 10:10

So you have three books planned, but only two out. I do Do tell.

Jessica Martin: 10:14

Yes, for everybody keeping score. And finally, the youngest, the youngest sister is Cordy Cordelia, and she is sort of the Spitfire, firebrand. You never know what she's gonna do. She's gonna burn the place down, she's gonna light it up. She is the town baker, she works at Much Ado About Pastry and she is really sort of the anchor of that family. But she is definitely the wild child and she's probably the one I identify the least with, who I love the most but I don't identify with because I am not a wild child. God, you've known me. Yes, very good, very conservative, very rule based. Yes, cordy is none of these things. So writing her story, I think, has been the most challenging.

Scott: 10:52

Wow, that's awesome. Did you have this whole like mapped out George Lucas, star Wars trilogy thing going on? Yes, I like it, I like it. So once you get a book out, then what happens?

Jessica Martin: 11:04

Yeah, then the marketing begins. Then that's sort of the dog and pony show of marketing your book, helping find its readers, its champions. You do a lot of podcasts. You do some book signings Not as much as you think, I think. You get a lot more traction now online, so you build a social platform. I'm very active on Instagram.

Scott: 11:25

Yes.

Jessica Martin: 11:25

I've not done the TikTok, I have not put my toe on the TikTok.

Scott: 11:28

I have it either. I'm scared. I'm scared, I'm not there.

Jessica Martin: 11:33

But yeah, you do those things to find your reader, but Instagram, facebook, facebook sells a lot of books. I found it for my marketing team of two at Penguin, and Facebook sells tons of books. It's got an algorithm Instagram, twitter. I generally stay off Twitter. I tend to run my mouth, so Instagram is sort of picture-based. Things are best for me.

Scott: 11:52

Have you done the threads no?

Jessica Martin: 11:55

No, I looked into it and I just it feels I'm going to use the word derivative.

Scott: 11:59

Yeah, Do you thread? I did just, you know, to promote podcasts and I was like you know, I'm just I'm asking for trouble, I'm going to get mouthy and it's just, it's too instantaneous.

Jessica Martin: 12:08

Yes, it's too much for me, right? Yeah, no, I'm not threading.

Scott: 12:12

Yeah, so you've done book signings. How, how crazy is that? Is that so people physically came to a building buy your book and then wait for you to physically sign it? That's like I know that's pretty ego pumping right there.

Jessica Martin: 12:24

It's epic, it's also, it's also ego draining when you go to a signing and very few people show up. So it's the. It's the highs and lows of people showing up or not showing up. But I will tell you I'm a lifelong reader and I can count on the number on my one hand how many times I've gone to a book signing. I just didn't know that people did that yeah.

Jessica Martin: 12:42

So, it's great that people come out that way, but normally you try to make it good for them. You bring some bookmarks and swag and then you do a reading and people seem to really like that.

Scott: 12:50

That's yeah, that's interesting. I'm sure it could turn out like it could be just genuine fans that are just awesome and just supportive and want to just show their face. And then you might get like do you think you get any? Like, uh, hecklers. But I was thinking more like you know, dorks that are like following you around, like to every single book signing. Do you have a wish? I wish.

Jessica Martin: 13:07

That would be fun. In the book, everybody who works at Shakespeare is called a bardolator, and so I don't have many bardolators. I get a lot of fun questions. I mean it's amazing what people will ask out in public of you, but I've gotten pretty seasoned. At this point that no question is surprising. But everyone said I'm like, oh, all right, that's cool. Um, yeah, so no question seems to be a whole part. But what everybody always wants to know is you know, is Adam in the main characters? Are they real? Did you base them on people? Um, that's the big one I get, yeah, and then the other one I get is how hard was it to write the sex scene? I get that one all the time.

Scott: 13:43

Goodness gracious.

Jessica Martin: 13:43

Goodness gracious is right, and I wrote an article for writer's digest on it called how to write a sex scene like nobody is watching. Um, so I will send you the link to that. It's very tongue in cheek. Yes, yeah, that's part of the show notes.

Jessica Martin: 13:55

Yes, that's part of the expectation is that you you write one Right. Most rom-coms have them. Yeah, unless you're sort of in the like a Christian genre, most of them have them. So that was very nerve-wracking to look anybody who'd read it in the eye after that. And then I just got used to it. You get used to it, scott.

Scott: 14:12

I am very good friends with your husband, justin. Yes, and I'm assuming that he has read these books. What was his take on the scenes?

Jessica Martin: 14:19

You know what I'm gonna out him right now? He has not read any of my books.

Scott: 14:23

Shut up, I know, are you?

Jessica Martin: 14:24

serious. Oh, I'm so cathartic. Gourby is not much of a reader, but I will say what he is so supportive of is part of the reason I can write these books is because we are like zone parents, because he will take M for like four hours so I can, and then I'll pile it in and I'll take M so he can go off and relax, and then we come together and do family night. So I don't think I could write as quickly as I do or as much as I do if I didn't sort of have that kind of supportive partner.

Scott: 14:47

Oh, that's good. Okay, but wow, he didn't read like he didn't read them, but he checks.

Jessica Martin: 14:52

He checks to make sure he's in the dedications and the acknowledgement. I'm like who are you?

Scott: 14:59

That's when that one's tough. I mean, I dropped my first episode. I like physically stood and watched my wife download it. I was like you, better hit that little arrow down Now now.

Jessica Martin: 15:09

I mean she talked into it, though she talked to you to do it. I mean she should, she should definitely bear witness. Yeah, yeah.

Scott: 15:14

Well, she also technically named it for make a fun of me for being, or attempting to be, smarter than everybody.

Jessica Martin: 15:19

Well, I like the name of it. I think it's brilliant. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Scott: 15:23

You talk about the questions. Do you have any crazy questions that you can tell us that aren't like dirty ones?

Jessica Martin: 15:27

No, not like foul or dirty. Most of them around the sex scene. You know like people giggle now, like I just did.

Jessica Martin: 15:33

People just want to know if they're real or like. They go character by character. They're like is Miranda real? Is the dog real? There's always going to be a dog in my book, so people want to know if Puck and Hamlet are real. So they're loosely based on my rescue dog, but it's just, it's kind of funny and it's even better when my friends are in the audience, because a lot of my characters are sort of snips and snatches of friends and sort of make these amalgamations or I just eavesdrop like the best place for me is standing in a Starbucks behind teens man. I pick up some of my best lines standing behind teens and Starbucks, but I think that's a big one. And then people will sometimes ask like oh, did you ever think of doing this, this and this with the plot? And then you're like no, no, I did not. That is actually brilliant. So then you wonder like, can I take that idea?

Scott: 16:16

If you like. Oh, maybe I have to wait a few books until that person forgets. They actually mentioned it to me, Exactly.

Jessica Martin: 16:21

Yes, and then people just have a lot of Shakespeare questions and it's so interesting to me because they're like oh, did you mean to embed the Shakespeare thing here? And a lot of the times I think Shakespeare is just so the Quiddus in his out there. That like you're like, yeah, okay, I can, I can see how you would work Shakespeare into that. So lots of good questions, lots of weird ones.

Scott: 16:40

It seems like there's like an actual like universe created. You've created this universe of the barred verse. The barred verse and it sounds like the barred verse. Admittedly, I have not read them either yet, but I intend on it. It sounds like this barred verse could possibly be translated to the screen. Is that something that that interests you, funny?

Jessica Martin: 17:15

you should say that, Scott. I'm specifically forbidden from talking about that.

Scott: 17:20

Okay.

Jessica Martin: 17:21

But it would be lovely someday to see barred on the small screen or the big screen, and that is certainly the hope for it. I think it naturally lends itself to kind of a fan base in a universe. It would look really good in a small, we'll say hallmarky type movie. Look really good.

Scott: 17:37

You know it sounds like to me. In the interest of full disclosure, I was and still am a gigantic Gilmore Girls fan. I don't care if anyone knows, I'm not scared. Love it. It sounds like a smarter juicier. Gilmore Girls, hometown feel.

Jessica Martin: 17:52

Okay, scott, I'm going to tell you this and I'm sure my agent is going to be rolling here. So I've never seen Gilmore Girls and all the time people are like what are you doing? I was probably writing. People are like this is like stars hollow. This is stars hollow and I keep it's on my list. Scott, I will watch it. I swear when my kid is like a teen, but I get that all the time and I'm so flattered by it. I've never seen an episode.

Scott: 18:16

I can't even close my mouth. I can't even close my mouth. I'm shocked.

Jessica Martin: 18:19

I will, though. I will, though, because I love those two actresses. I would love to watch that show. I'm not a huge TV watcher, I'm more of a sports fan. I'm like a socks fan and a Patriots fan, so, like, when I watch TV, it's usually sports.

Scott: 18:29

Well, I didn't watch it when it first came out. I like I might have caught it on lifetime, but I watched every episode. Fantastic. But yeah, I mean it's. You know these characters seem so developed and you've got like little offshoots going in different directions. You know you've got material for multi story involvement.

Jessica Martin: 18:45

Yes, yes, the Anselary Care, I think when you're writing Rom Carm or reading it and this is I went to Rom Carm from sci-fi what I love about sci-fi is the world building. I love, like, the universe, the lands, like I think about my two favorite authors, jim Butcher, sean McGuire. They have written the you know, wizard in Chicago, private Eye in San Francisco dozens of books and just you fall in love with the Anselary characters. You want to know what happens to them, like in the offseason, when you're waiting 11 months for that book, you're like I wonder what they're doing right now. That is what I love about sci-fi and I've tried to keep that in with the Rom Carm, this small town vibe where you fall in love with the characters, but not just the main ones, but sort of the Anselary ones, and they grow with you.

Scott: 19:24

So is this going to be a side profession for the long term, or what's your ultimate goal? What would you like to have happen?

Jessica Martin: 19:33

I want to keep writing books. I have a couple other projects non Shakespearean projects in the tank that I'm hoping you know that we see. Sometime we'll see the light of day. But I do love being a lawyer and apparently I'm stuck being a parent until MS-18. So I think that will that writing will have to stay the side gig unless I hit the you know New York Times list and then I'll come back on the show Scott. We'll dish about that.

Scott: 19:56

Oh, my God that'd be awesome that would be awesome. I get downloads like crazy. I'd be so excited. I'll do my best. You know I might have bragged on one of my previous episodes, but I'm pretty popular globally now. Excellent, I have seven downloads from Zambia. Zambia, I believe it's a country in Africa. I'm not 100% sure, but seven yes.

Jessica Martin: 20:16

We should check that. I mean, you have a fan base growing now. We should definitely check that.

Scott: 20:19

Yes, I'll take this time to say hi to my fans out in Zambia. Hi, Zambianians. Zambianians, Well, yeah, Zambia. A couple downloads from Tokyo, the Philippines. I got one from Thailand. I think it's just like one person circumnavigating the globe.

Jessica Martin: 20:37

Hey, I'm just going to show you some short here. Yeah, this is so interesting. It's cool that you can see where they're from too. I think that's so interesting. You're like oh, I'm building like a global network here.

Scott: 20:46

Yeah, yeah, you can't see like you know who from you know an IP standpoint, you just see just general cities. But yeah, like Zambia is like it's, I'm pretty huge. I'm like the David Hasselhoff of Zambia.

Jessica Martin: 20:56

Oh, that is a great reference. Excellent, that's what I will think of when I think of you now, scott, the David Hasselhoff oh no, I'm going to think of it as podcasts. I'm going big here, so you can be the David, you can be the half of a podcast here.

Scott: 21:09

Yeah, gosh, I was like passed out on the floor Reference some of the kids out there won't get, but so you've got these other things in the tank Are they rom-com, or are they different genres?

Jessica Martin: 21:22

Yeah, so they're different genres still in the rom-com, but one would be speculative fiction and so people always like glaze over and you say that, but basically it's taking a sci-fi element or a supernatural element and dropping it into a rom-com. The ones that people are really familiar with are sort of witchy, paranormal rom-coms or how to date your werewolf and those kind of things, and I actually find those very fun to read. I love me a good. It's a vampire, it's a werewolf, it's a witch. I love those stories. So I've got one of those in the tank. And the speculative fiction is a little bit more a cerebral, dealing with sort of the afterlife and seeing if there's something there that will stick. But would love to write more Bard books and I have a couple, as I said, a couple of other ideas. But it's always interesting to sort of see what the publishing trends are and what your publishing house will buy from you.

Scott: 22:11

So what do you have time to write? Do you just set time aside or do you just all of a sudden you're like I gotta go right now? I? Have something I need to put down on paper.

Jessica Martin: 22:18

Yeah, it's definitely not like IBS. I'm definitely a planner. Yeah, you have to be. You have to like stay intact, and I actually find it very helpful to have deadlines. So I know, if I have something to do with my editor, I will work back and plot from there. What I don't plan is sort of the spontaneous writing oh my gosh, I just gotta get it down. That's a lot more spontaneous. But editing I will meticulously plan out because I like to edit and sort of I'm super OCD. We're talking about how you edit podcasts.

Jessica Martin: 22:49

I edit mine in like chunks of three chapters because I want to be consistent and once I got three, then I go three plus three and then three plus nine and I like it to be consistent throughout. So you know the editing is I try to be more meticulous and methodical about that and that's just do that primarily at night. There's an entire culture of writers who get up and there's the 5am writing club and I cannot think of anything other than exercising. I would like to do less at five in the morning. I just I can't think of anything. I'm like wow, I'm so impressed by people who can do that, but I'm a night owl and I'm definitely like a weekend writer. I will skip chores, you know, skip all the fun stuff at home, and I will. I will write my own edit.

Scott: 23:28

So what is the editing process kind of look like?

Jessica Martin: 23:32

How do you?

Scott: 23:32

edit, or what are you looking for when you edit?

Jessica Martin: 23:34

Oh, it's a lot of self doubt. I use that terrible software and word and I actually read every chapter out loud. I have the female sort of robotic voice, because for me, and particularly in romcoms, it's getting the dialogue right and you're listening to it being like, oh, it's perfect. You're like, oh, nobody in the right mind actually talks like that. So like hit, pause, clean it up. And then it's sort of it's also a logistical thing of like if you said this in the last chapter but it's different, in chapter eight you got a problem so you got to be careful, I think, on logistics. So it's the continuity piece, it's pacing, it's making sure your characters are staying in their characters and not taking on other character attributes. So it's really that like crisp sort of cleaning process and that audio I'm waiting for. The neighbor Microsoft Word like decides to hire, like a Clooney or Julia Roberts or somebody established, and they do the voice like I would pay extra for that.

Scott: 24:28

Maybe I could pull that off Now I could.

Jessica Martin: 24:30

I would download that better than the Zion or Zaya, whatever it is on Microsoft Word. It's atrocious, but it's so helpful to hear it. You catch more mistakes that way.

Scott: 24:39

Yeah, have you caught something that was you know from a continuity standpoint? Have you caught something you know, listening to it, that you were like wait a minute, I just could have sworn. I heard that.

Jessica Martin: 24:48

Oh yes. Or at one point I was referring to, like the bakery is the coffee shop and I was like this will not do. It did not morph into a coffee, oh yeah.

Scott: 24:55

Because you think about.

Jessica Martin: 24:56

You're writing over like a nine month span, like things are going to get messed up. So I keep notes too, of like, if you said the characters eyes were icy, then they're not Robin's egg blue, right, because that's more rewarding flavor. So it's trying to keep that stuff. And then, when you know, when I picked up the second book, I went back and read all my notes on the first book to make sure that I did not contradict anything I had said in the first book and the second book. You know, I think from doing the podcast.

Scott: 25:21

I think that that folks appreciate that the editing that goes on behind the scenes so much more than they realize. You know we were talking earlier about like from my standpoint of editing. And when I edit I'm pulling ums and ahs and that stuff kind of out because I don't want to listen to them. I know other people probably don't want to, but that's how people talk um, um, right there. But it shortens and condenses the ideas. It's a lot easier to grasp the whole story when you're not listening to a mom all the time and it's probably the same thing when you know you're going through and meticulously pulling stuff out and putting stuff in after the fact.

Jessica Martin: 25:58

Yes, definitely. And then you get to this you send it to your editor. So you're, my agent will often edit, my editor will edit. In your editing house you have this gloriously anal, retentive copywriter who you never meet. They prefer to stay anonymous and they go through your book and they may say something like this subway station you mentioned does not exist. Did you mean this? You know you're referencing something they're like well, Ravens weren't really prevalent in the Northeast in the 1850s. Like perhaps you meant the common man guy.

Scott: 26:25

Oh, my God it is so great.

Jessica Martin: 26:27

I feel like there's a book to be written about copy editors. They are the people who save your book. Or if it's four pm on one page and they're like I'm sorry, it's now 2 pm in the next page, they will catch stuff you miss. So they are my favorite people, but very secluded in mystery in this whole process. Wow.

Scott: 26:44

So what are the stages? So you're writing, you have to turn over, you know, x amount of pages or X amount of chapters to your, your agent or your editor. How does that whole process work?

Jessica Martin: 26:52

Yeah, it's usually drafts. So it's your, you know, final draft, a polished draft. Then you get your editorial draft. You get comments back, then you get your copy, copy editing, sort of your final they call it the final manuscript setting. So it's your last shot to really go back and read it all together. So by the time you've, you know, reviewed it, you're really, really sick of every word. You've written every single word. Everything that like sparkled for you in the beginning you were tired of. That's great. That's not how you know you're done.

Scott: 27:19

First book comes out 2022. Second book comes out 2023. Did you just blow through that, like you were like I know exactly what I'm going to write, I know exactly, and you just flew right through that one to get it to the press.

Jessica Martin: 27:29

Yes, I mean I had so much more of an idea because once that first book is out it almost like it wrote the second book. And also you know you have your whole outline to your agent and to your editor and they weigh in. So you're like, yeah, this is the plot, I want, this is the storyline, I want this is the plot. So it goes so much faster. And just that confidence of, okay, that first book is out in the world and you haven't been laughed out of sort of every book story you've been in, so it just feels that vote of confidence to like get the second one out. It was so much easier.

Scott: 27:57

How many bookstores have you been in?

Jessica Martin: 28:00

Oh man, I don't even know how to quantify that, because I'm a book nerd. I've been in a lot of bookstores, Scott.

Scott: 28:06

Well, how many? All right, let me be more specific. How many bookstores have you been in to do readings, or to pitch, or to do any sort of marketing for your?

Jessica Martin: 28:15

Maybe a dozen, which I know it doesn't marketing to. I mean, I visited. So I visited close to 30 bookstores for my first book to get the word out. So I and I've done signings. I'm doing a book club at one. Book clubs are another trippy thing that you can do at bookstores. You can do in people's homes and are super fun. But yeah, I go to a lot of bookstores just to kind of pound the pavement, especially when I was a debut, to be like hey, I'm a local author, I'm running Shakespeare and Rome. Comes, here's my postcard and like my contact info. So I think it's important, like you, go see your indie bookstores.

Jessica Martin: 28:48

I have huge amount of what I've worked in indie bookstores and I've worked at Barnes and Noble and I have loves for both of them. I don't play favorites books or books for me, anything that has a book in the window. I will go in and see if they have my book and then offer to sign it. Like the first couple of days must be so embarrassing. You go in there and there's this like 18 year old booksell and you're like hey, that's my book on the shelf. Would you like me to sign it? I'm the author. And then you show them the back cover where my face is, as if some random person would try to sign a book that is not theirs, but it just it always felt legitimate to be like that's me, so now I don't do that. A lot more chill and I was in. My first book came out, but yeah, it was just a big moment for me. You see your book in print.

Scott: 29:27

Absolutely is Absolutely. Do you ever go into bookstores and just randomly sign some books?

Jessica Martin: 29:32

My books yeah.

Scott: 29:34

Yeah Well, yeah, sometimes I like to go into the bookstore and sign the Bible.

Jessica Martin: 29:38

That's right. I mean, surprise, I had books or like the crossword puzzles or like sign them, love, love, mark. Yeah, no, normally I announce myself because I just want to make sure they would like you to sign the books. But most people are like very sweet about it and then I usually stick like stick a sticker on it, like ooh, signed by the author. And I always wonder if that actually encourages people to buy books or not, because I certainly don't pick books based on whether somebody signed them or not. But you know, maybe it's cool.

Scott: 30:02

I would buy a book that was signed by the author. Yeah, because you're getting it for the same price. It's like free autograph.

Jessica Martin: 30:07

Yeah, I wouldn't buy the plain one sitting next to it. I would take the autograph copy, but I don't know that I would go into it. If someone was like, oh, we have all these signed copies of like fourth wing right, that book that's everybody's reading right now, I don't know if I would go in and get one. I don't know if I would make like a separate trip for it, but if it was there I would tell you that.

Scott: 30:21

Yeah, I would be worried also about autographing the book and like screwing up my name, missing a letter or something.

Jessica Martin: 30:27

That's right Recursive and you just kind of get like right early about it.

Scott: 30:32

Sometimes I forget to cross my t's. It's weird.

Jessica Martin: 30:34

It's when people spell names for me. They're like, oh, can you make it out to like Samantha? And there's an effinite. You're like, oh my God, could you just spell that for me? That's that's. What's hard is that you're going to mess up somebody's dedication. But yeah, I do really get my name right. It's the dedication that frighten me sometimes. I want to sign some stuff.

Scott: 30:52

I'm looking around my little studio here and see what I can sign.

Jessica Martin: 30:56

Sign.

Scott: 30:57

Yeah, so you mentioned that your husband has not read your books.

Jessica Martin: 31:00

Yes, oh, he's going to hate this podcast.

Scott: 31:02

God, I just can't get that out of my head. I'm only doing it because I know I think it's funny to just keep grinding it in. We'll have everybody like comment on oh yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't read the book.

Jessica Martin: 31:11

Yeah, oh yeah, we're going to, we're going to out him right here. What better way to do it, scott, yeah, yeah, I assume your daughter obviously has not read the book.

Scott: 31:20

But what does your daughter think of this whole?

Jessica Martin: 31:21

thing. She thinks my books are very boring because they don't have pictures in them. Well, obviously she's in a graphic novel stage. Yeah, graphic novels, by the way, are so much cooler than when we were kids. Yeah, and she is in this graphic novel stage. So if it does not have like vibrant pictures, she has no time for it. She's like who writes pictures without books and who reads these? I said adult adults. But maybe someday she'll get a kick out of it.

Scott: 31:42

That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, that's just just a cool thing to have the book like in the house and she sees it and she's like, wow, mommy did that. That's an awesome, awesome thing.

Jessica Martin: 31:49

Can I tell you what the coolest part of this whole experience has been? I love talking about this. So my biggest day as an author when it was like real was when they sent me the audition tapes for the narrator. I'm a huge audible person, like an audio person.

Scott: 32:01

Oh yeah.

Jessica Martin: 32:01

And it was so cool to get a vote. Like Penguin sends you all these like samples and I got to weigh in, I got to have a vote and they went with the woman that I picked and she's an actress, she's out in California, she's doing the second book. It was wild because then you hear your book and you're like, wow, I wrote that. So when people ask me like you know what's the coolest part of this? The close second is getting to like have a vote on your cover. But for me, my first love was getting to hear who would read it, so that's been my coolest part.

Scott: 32:30

But when you think of that concept, like someone is being paid to read the words that you wrote, that you got paid for I know it's a systemic just keeps perpetuating.

Jessica Martin: 32:38

We're paying in everybody crazy.

Scott: 32:41

Well, you mentioned the book covers. How does that process work, whether it were book covers chosen and who creates them?

Jessica Martin: 32:47

And so they had picked out an artist that they were super jazzed about. Her name is Flora Fuentes and she is incredible. She's a designer. She's a graphic designer out of Buenos Aires and I just was. I was her first book cover and I was so honored because they asked they gave her the book. And then they asked me to sort of suggest if I had any thoughts about the cover at a couple, but none of them very good, and she just brought them to life and I thought, oh, my goodness, this is what they look like. So I begged and pleaded that she would do the second cover and I just love them. They're really vibrant, they're really fun. I love the colors, but I'm not artistically inclined that way. So the cover thing was more intimidating. I'm so glad she's so talented. She figured it out. The Audible narrator was more at my alley, which was like I like to listen to books, so I felt like more of a voice and I like to stand on there to be like I love this person.

Scott: 33:34

I'm looking at both books now and I like the way that she kind of color flipped them. That's a really cool thing because it shows that connectivity and very cool concept. I like that.

Jessica Martin: 33:44

Yeah, I love them.

Scott: 33:45

So, jess, when I did my podcast research and I put into Google Jessica Martin, author, it also Google gives you suggestions. Oh and yes, I don't know if you've seen this and it says people also have searched for and look at the company you're in Nora Roberts, whoa, danielle Steele, bk Bunsen I have no idea who that is. Who is?

Jessica Martin: 34:08

BK Bunsen, I will look this up.

Scott: 34:11

But Danielle Steele, whoa and Ellie Everhart. Let's see what BK Bunsen has done. Oh well, she's an Amazon bestselling author, so right there. Oh, she's done some competitive romcom books as well. Oh, you can't really see it in my point of flip around. But yeah, she's done some other books, but they obviously are not anywhere near yours, so we'll get rid of her.

Jessica Martin: 34:29

That's so fun, so I don't. I subscribe to be like. I don't Google myself. I never go on Goodreads to see what Goodreads is like a savage place, really. Yeah, I set up Google alerts and I you know I mostly find like my diehard fans are on Instagram. So like I will search the hashtag of the title and people like people do great stuff on Instagram with your book. They like pose it on the beach and like with, like beads and coffee and tea and you're like that is gorgeous.

Scott: 34:55

It's awesome.

Jessica Martin: 34:56

And sometimes they read the book or sometimes they're just people kind of work with covers, they're like visual artists. So I absolutely love that. But yeah, I generally stay off the internet. I stay off the reviews. I generally wait for my agent to tell me if it's a good review or not. They generally critically they've done pretty well. But yeah, it's just, it's your writing. You can feel kind of like protective of it. So I just their places, their dark places on the internet I tend to stay out of.

Scott: 35:18

So I'm on Goodreads right now. Yeah, I don't mean to put you on the spot. Can I read one of the reviews that it's?

Jessica Martin: 35:22

Yes, only with the good ones. If it's like I wish, the puppies would drown in this one and then don't read those ones. The puppies would drown.

Scott: 35:28

Oh good Lord. Oh Puck, that's the name of the puppy, not not? Well, you obviously don't. But for the listeners, it's not that I didn't want to say fuck, because I could say it's my podcast, I'll say whatever.

Jessica Martin: 35:38

Oh yeah, no, Puck is in the first, puck, yeah, puck in the first, fucking Hamlet in the second.

Scott: 35:43

So this is Jessica's writing flows brilliantly. It just feels she's writing from a place where her husband hasn't read both books yet.

Jessica Martin: 35:51

Oh, wonderful.

Scott: 35:52

I'm gonna frame that one.

Jessica Martin: 35:54

Yeah, she writes uninhibited as if her husband isn't watching.

Scott: 35:58

I want to check that one out.

Jessica Martin: 36:02

Oh man, what are you going to call? I feel like we have to somehow title this episode. Gourby doesn't read rom-toms, or something fun.

Scott: 36:09

So here's the thing on my podcast. So they just convert, they just change over to AI, which scares the shit out of me. Like somehow I feel that because I'm having AI do my podcast synopsis, that it's going to trigger World War Three. I feel like I'm going to be part of it. I don't. Oh, I see. Yeah, it kind of crunches everything and if you keep harping on a subject it may pick it up. So if it does become one of the title suggestions, I'll let you know.

Jessica Martin: 36:33

Oh yeah, absolutely I'm not going to be the friend discount and you can sort of work it into a title because that will be immortal and legend in our house.

Scott: 36:40

So yeah, I'll screenshot it and you can make it your background on Facebook. Excellent. Well, Jess, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your insanely busy schedule as a lawyer, mom, wife, world bestselling author to sit down and chat with me today.

Jessica Martin: 36:55

Well, thank you, Scott. This was so fun. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Scott: 36:58

Where can people buy the books?

Jessica Martin: 36:59

You can buy books wherever they are sold. Support your local indie. Go into a Barnes and Noble, go on Amazon Anywhere you can access books, gay for you, or your library. I used to be a teacher's aid library and I am a huge promoter of your local library and a lot of libraries have it. So go find it. And you can find me on Instagram at C Jess write books You're a creative. And you can find me at Jessica Martin bookscom.

Scott: 37:21

Awesome. I'll put those both the show notes. Folks, if you are all my listeners in Zambia, amazon will deliver to you. We'll get it there. But everybody, please check these books out. They sound amazing. I can't wait to check them out myself. I have massive ADD and it's really hard to read a full book, but maybe I will just get the audio book right.

Jessica Martin: 37:37

You can listen to it, yes, but not with your daughter in the car. Oh, okay.

Scott: 37:41

Oops, oops, honey, earmuffs, quick, quick.

Jessica Martin: 37:45

It is a romcom and like 90% of it is family friendly and then 10% of it is not. You'll figure it out.

Scott: 37:52

We'll get there. We'll get there. But, yeah, thank you again for taking the time. This has been great. Everybody, please go check out all her social media stuff and pick up both books for the love of the Bard, and the second one, the even more salacious. I think that, yeah, definitely Is it salacious, even the more salacious one the day of my existence. Thanks again, this has been fantastic. I wish you the best of luck. Thanks, I can't wait to possibly see these on screen as well, but we'll see.

Jessica Martin: 38:18

We'll see, we'll see what the future holds, and I don't recall.

Scott: 38:20

I did a fair amount of acting. So you know, if you've got some clout and there's an old crabby man in your books, I'm your man. Well, thanks, scott, take care. Thank you so much, thank you.

Jessica Martin: 38:32

I mean, you look official, so you're in.

Scott: 38:34

I'm going to let you know a little secret these headphones aren't even plugged in. Not even plugged in, excellent, just for effect, just for show. No, they're plugged in.