EP13 Meagen Anderson - Crafting & Pioneering the Non-Alcoholic Revolution

When Meagen Anderson stepped away from the conventional tide of alcohol-laden social norms, she embarked on a remarkable quest to reinvent herself.  In our latest episode, we sit down with this visionary who not only navigated through her own zero-proof transformation but is now leading a movement to redefine the very essence of what it means to enjoy a sophisticated drink. Meagen's deep dive into her past with the Boston Beer Company and her international hop sales expertise is just the tip of the iceberg as she shares how she's now pouring her knowledge into the non-alcoholic beverage industry with a passion for quality and flavor that rivals her alcoholic counterparts.

Our conversation takes an intimate turn as we peel back the layers of alcohol's role in personal history and its broader societal implications. We unwrap the complex package of navigating alcohol consumption amidst familial predispositions, professional requirements, and cultural expectations. The tangible benefits of moderating one's intake, or even abstaining, come into sharp focus as I recount my own journey toward improved mental clarity and well-being, revealing the transformative power of resources like the one year no beer challenge and the enlightening wisdom of Annie Grace's "This Naked Mind."

As we glimpse into the future, Meagen paints a picture of a burgeoning industry where health-conscious trends are steering the market towards innovative, non-alcoholic delights. We tease out the exciting potential of hemp-derived beverages and how they might just reshape the beverage scene. Wrapping up a discussion that's as rich and complex as the brews we've pondered, we celebrate the stories of personal growth and change, and the unending journey of learning. So, here's to the mavericks like Meagen, crafting a future where the clinking of glasses isn't just about the alcohol content but the joy of shared experiences and mindful choices. Cheers to that!

To learn more about, or become certified yourself:  https://www.alcoholfreeaficionados.com/

To buy Meagen's book:  https://www.amazon.com/AFNA-Beer-CertifiedTM-Learning-Manual-ebook/dp/B0CL3S8D9G

For more information:  https://www.hopforwardconsulting.com/

To watch episodes of The Enlightened Buzz:  
https://www.youtube.com/@EnlightenedBuzz

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Transcript

Scott: 1:24

My guest today is Megan Anderson.

Scott: 1:25

Having lived a zero-proof lifestyle since 2020, Meagen has a passion for elevating the category of alcohol-free and non-alcoholic known today here as AFNA, and reducing stigmas associated with the production, sales, marketing and service of adult beverages. Megan holds an MBA in sustainable business from Maharishi International University in Fairfield, iowa, in combination with consciousness consulting training with the esteemed Dr Tony Nader, and is a 20-year consumer packaged goods industry veteran, with a commercial portfolio that includes National Beer Education role with the Boston Beer Company, where we met, as well as global hop sales management roles with CalSec and NZ Hops Limited from New Zealand. She also founded Transcending Trauma in 2022, a program created to support survivors and supporters of the hashtag MeToo movement by offering transcendental meditation, training and consciousness programs to breweries and individuals. Outside of a love for training and education, megan has consulted for breweries, hemp and cannabis beverage producers and commercial hop startups. Meagen is also a certified Cicerone, a certified BJ CP judge, and has completed over 140 hours of in-person beer sensory training with the esteemed Dr Bill Simpson. Megan Anderson welcome to Carney Saves the World.

Meagen Anderson: 2:35

Awesome. Thank you, scott, it's so good to see you. This is amazing. I just realized I don't have an NA beer in my hand and I have one in the fridge. Can I take my computer with me to go get it, or should I run and get it and come back? Okay, I hope you have something to drink too. If not, you should grab something.

Scott: 2:53

I don't have an NA or regular A beverage, but I'll drink a Diet Pepsi. How's that All right? Should have planned better.

Meagen Anderson: 3:03

I should have stocked my fridge I even have some nice glassware.

Scott: 3:09

Excellent.

Meagen Anderson: 3:10

For my AF sampling. So I have a full thing and I'm going to open an Italian-style pills.

Scott: 3:18

Oh nice.

Meagen Anderson: 3:19

Which is from Untitled Art Brewing and they're out of Wisconsin.

Scott: 3:24

Oh great.

Meagen Anderson: 3:25

And they're using a vacuum distillation removal. So they're just brewing full-strength beers and then they're using vacuum to get out the alcohol.

Scott: 3:35

Oh really.

Meagen Anderson: 3:36

But it allows you to condense the other flavors and then you can kind of build really really nice beers this way and you can actually get to a true 0.0. This one is not, this is a 0.5. And it's just such a good beer. Like if I gave this to you, you would probably not know that there was alcohol in it. Like it's such a great product. I actually just went to their brewery and checked it out recently. It was so cool.

Scott: 3:56

There's so many options out there nowadays, it's just great. The category is just growing massively.

Meagen Anderson: 4:00

Yeah, I love it. I think it's just such a fun category and you just get used to the new flavor profile without alcohol in it. Like it does take some time to get used to that, I think, but once you do I'm like my life's awesome now, like I feel good all the time. And for me, I just took the technical approach right. Like I went and learned the sensory, the primary sensory. I'm still learning. I mean, we're still doing research to find out the sensory profiles of these types of beverages, what's good and what's not, because, like no one's really studied it before. So I'm like very interested in that. And like man, they have a team at Araxa. You know who does like the sensory compound training. You know what I mean.

Meagen Anderson: 4:38

Like you did all those little capsules or whatever. So the guy who invented those, Dr Bill Simpson, has like been a great mentor and friend to me and he's like personally taught me a lot and I've gotten to hang out with him on several occasions and he's brilliant and so good.

Scott: 4:53

So for anybody listening who's not familiar, basically all these little capsules are extremely potent versions of aromas and flavors that you may get in beer and it kind of shocks it into your memory so that you can pick that up. And there's some brutal ones.

Meagen Anderson: 5:09

Yes, yes, exactly, just this has just been a really fun, just been a really fun time.

Scott: 5:14

So Megan and I worked together when she was in sales at Boston Beer Company and then you moved into a national trainer role and became one of the trainers for our entire sales force. And then you took a different step and you left Boston Beer and you created a consulting program.

Meagen Anderson: 5:29

I did.

Scott: 5:30

But you hopped forward.

Meagen Anderson: 5:31

Yes, that's correct In 2016.

Scott: 5:34

And you were using some of that training that you'd learned at Boston Beer and kind of bring other companies out.

Meagen Anderson: 5:39

Yeah, yeah, a combination of sales training I'd had from a couple of companies, but Boston Beer was one of them. I also worked for Altria right out of college, so they own a tobacco company. So I worked for Philip Morris USA and they gave us a lot of training. They owned SAB Miller at the time. I had a lot of sales training pretty early on and I think Boston Beer made that more specialized.

Meagen Anderson: 6:02

They taught me the value of investing in just really good frameworks and go-to methods for, let's say, negotiation or a specific selling process, like when I got to that level of detail and understanding of how to actually execute things. Well then you can be a good consultant because you can build strategies based on the fact that if you give someone a framework, then they have something repeatable and you can measure it and then you have information and when you have information you can make a better decision. So I use that kind of methodology, I guess, to sort of scale small startups. That's sort of where I went after I left Boston Beer. I was like, oh, that's cool. I probably underestimated really early on the value of that.

Meagen Anderson: 6:45

And Hopford was more like me, just like going in and doing projects and companies, kind of making up my own framework or finding really easy opportunities. Like I consulted for a small brewery and they wanted to expand their draft programs. The first thing I taught them was how to clean lines. I was like if you want your beer to taste good and you want to increase your sales, you need to manage your own draft lines in this area and if you do that, you're going to be better able to spot opportunity. Because I just knew they'd be touching the product more and be like more and they did that in that function of the business crew and they had a really strong taproom business. They were very, very good architects and had a beautiful space and a lot of loyal friends, I think, in the area and built a really kind of desirable business model based on that.

Meagen Anderson: 7:34

And yeah, I think I was able to take what we learned there and, in many ways, just sort of work it out myself and then hop forward. Now, I think, is more successful because I've had more training. Of course, I went and got my MBA and it helps to have to know how to run a company and what the different functions are and I didn't really know those things. But Boston Beer gave me the frameworks and I realized that those have a lot of value in them. You don't have to copy them, but you think like that. So I've been able to make creative versions of the names of stuff we had at Boston Beer. But for the cannabis industry I named part of their merchandising strategy buds be buds with the bartenders and the budtenders.

Meagen Anderson: 8:14

And things like that that were just creative and fun and make it a way that people could remember it, and then we can deploy it and we can use it to grow businesses.

Scott: 8:23

The acronyms were always helpful. That's what they're called right Acronyms.

Meagen Anderson: 8:26

Acronyms yes, we had a lot of them.

Scott: 8:28

Yes, god, many of you remember every single one of them.

Meagen Anderson: 8:31

Being truckers, saying all the acronyms were like hey, where's your prime? Get on the execution. So when did you get your MBA? So I did all that in the background, actually, after I got my MBA, when I stopped drinking alcohol, because I found out that when I wasn't thinking about drinking, planning to drink, talking about drinking, drinking and then recovering from drinking, I had a lot of time on my hands. So I consumed a lot of my time and then I just started feeling like I needed it, if I needed to get to the next level, because what I realized during that period was a lot of people told me you don't need your MBA, like you have a good personality, basically, and I kind of feel like, in a way, that was people limiting me.

Meagen Anderson: 9:14

These were mentors of mine, I think. In a way, I'm just a theory-based person, but I'm also a natural sales person, can influence and I like connecting with people. So I think I missed those opportunities to advocate for myself and say I wanted it. So I did it after then, which I started in 2021. And I just graduated in June.

Scott: 9:35

Awesome Congratulations.

Meagen Anderson: 9:36

And the focus of that MBA was through a very unique lens of sustainability, focused on starting with human development. So I also learned my MBA through the lens of making organizations and people more conscious and that really, I think, in terms of my own development, was the most valuable part of my education there.

Scott: 9:57

Yeah, I'm so interested in the consciousness aspect of it. When and why did you make the decision to stop drinking? I read somewhere that you said you did a 1,000 day cleanse. Was that specific? Or did you just go all of a sudden, wake up one day after quitting and be like, oh shit, it's 968 days?

Meagen Anderson: 10:13

No, no. Yeah, it was very intentional and it was starting at day one and accumulating days and then being like, oh, making it a little further than I'd ever made it before, and feeling a lot of freedom in that. But there's a caveat to that I have to. Let me just say this. I did a program called One Year, no Beer. I like to give credit to the products that helped me. I think they taught me that their curriculum was very easy for someone like me and it came with a community. You've gotten a private Facebook community and I was so moved by the transformations there.

Meagen Anderson: 10:52

I started to become hyper aware of the transformation aspect in this. And then, because of the university I was going in and I was meditating using this meditation technique. It's a technology of consciousness, so I was actually doing that. And then I hired a PhD in the Enneagram to study my ego structure and stuff and just like, once I got a wrap on those things, I was able to put it all together and so it was a combination of some of the tools. I think I had learned to be more aware and to develop sort of some more resilience. I needed some resilience.

Meagen Anderson: 11:46

I think everybody has trauma, but I think I just had to figure out my real problems, which is why was I drinking more than I really wanted to and why did I feel like once I started I couldn't stop when I wanted to? And that's actually alcohol use disorder. It's just like I lacked sort of that internal limiter of how much was good and healthy and OK and then what wasn't. And it was just like and I look at my family history, I mean my grandfather died of alcoholism in a very horrible, horrific way and so I think, knowing that I was just kind of like and I had a lot of alcoholism that was in my family, that just wasn't talked about and I think it was just normalized. I'd love to hear your version of that because I think we all have that story.

Meagen Anderson: 12:31

Alcohol after prohibition, it really became a big part of our society again and I think just that normalized it. 10 beers was OK, because it was just beer, but at the same time, like if a person's becoming drunk and then they're doing that really regularly, it was obviously, as people got older you could tell it hadn't been good to their health or their relationships. And then I found myself just kind of playing that out and I started to wonder is this it Like? Is this how it's going to be? You know?

Scott: 13:04

You know it's funny. So my father was a pretty aggressive alcoholic. He was in and out of our lives. He passed away when I was 24. But when he was around he would have one drink at night and then two drinks and by 10 o'clock it was four or five. He wasn't rowdy but all of a sudden he would just pass out and he was like dad's done for the night and you'd wake up in the morning to go to school and he'd still be there and you're like, oh, this is a problem.

Scott: 13:28

So when I got the job at Boston Beer Company right out of college, my mother was not happy. It was like wait a minute, you know, we got something into family. Let's just keep an eye on it. You know, and you tend to get out of control once in a while when you work for a beer company. So there were days where you were like that was a little aggressive. But as you get older, obviously if you're not dealing with a problem you can taper it off and slow it down. And the last couple of years we'd take two, three months off just to see. But this past year if I did three months, you know it's nothing compared to what other people do what you've done, but you know it's a step in the right direction and you know, ultimately it's where I know I've got to go.

Meagen Anderson: 14:04

What was the result for you Like? What did you experience?

Scott: 14:08

Oh, massive loss of weight. Wow, massive loss of weight. I also was working out, and then I was doing some keto, and when I drink, I'll tend to eat something nice and unnecessary. You know, as I was drinking, I was also gaining weight. That way Felt better in the mornings though. Wow cool, my digestive system was better. It was all around a good thing. So I'm actually thinking about hanging her up running New Year's this year, for we'll start with.

Meagen Anderson: 14:34

Well, I mean, I think the good thing is if you know you can do three months and like you, that's like actually like a lot of willpower, like at first, but I think knowing you can do that, mix it up for three months, I mean I can definitely advise you on some ways to be like let's develop a drinking program together where it's like, it's kind of like I choose AF on these days and I choose drink. You know, I mean you can kind of like it's a way to like taper. I think for people that have more, if you are in a framework right Like, it's easier to say like I'm doing it this way and there's lots of options for that, and I can refer you to some great programs that do that too, because it's very difficult for most people, I think, to think about letting go of something you really love. I mean I'm sure you have a favorite bottle of red wine or like there's got to be.

Meagen Anderson: 15:20

There's a few things out there that I this is an important part of like our culture and these are delicious beverages that played a really important part so they can be consumed, although the way people understood how much we could consume without having a negative impact versus what we know now. When we consume it it has an intoxicating effect, but it also has, unfortunately, a toxic effect because it's a toxin. So here are the effects of it and you need to know. But we eat toxins all the time, so it's just like when you know that you have to just be balanced about it. Personally, for me, I think I associated the feeling of it with some sort of like stress release or something, because once I started doing other things and I was trained on knowing why and I think for all the reasons you just described I had all these immediate health improvements, particularly to my mental health.

Scott: 16:10

I mean absolutely.

Meagen Anderson: 16:11

I felt my mental health was not maybe so good. I was like really kind of. I think I had a lot of like self-esteem issues I think I had to deal with, you know, all the things that are like the normal people encounter. I say normal because I'm like what I think I went through was kind of like crazy because I worked for a beer company. It was very much part of the lifestyle or whatever, and I didn't think they encouraged really over drinking where we worked. I thought everybody was like encouraged to just like be responsible. But you know there's tragedies associated with that too and there were people that passed away or had illnesses that you know could have been associated with that. I think the company did a good job letting people make their choices there and there were sober people that worked at Boston Beer and they supported that very early on and I think those guys actually inspired me. They were kind of like my seat hey guys, if you hear this, you were my secret mental heroes because they did it and like were successful at work, they were respected. But I loved it. I loved my experience there.

Meagen Anderson: 17:15

I naively thought when I moved on, when I encountered other CEOs and stuff, they'd be like Jim and Martin and shocking they're not and that naivete ultimately led me down this series of like different types of career moves, because I think I kind of stumbled a little bit when I fell into cultures and companies that weren't the same not that Boston Beer is perfect, but I think they're pretty good.

Meagen Anderson: 17:39

Now that I've been able to compare it to companies of different sizes and statures, I think we had actually a really good culture and also, using that as a framework, a lot of the best practices that I take for how to build good teams were during that time that you and I were there when Craft Beer was growing really fast and the pressure was on right. We actually were part of like this really explosive category growth where business was growing so fast and like we were all learning and being squeezed, I think in a very interesting way, and it was a cool kind of social experiment. But the one thing that I took for granted was leadership who actually is very loving, and I think Jim is an example of people that were loving.

Scott: 18:22

You were in a tough market for Craft Beer too. You were down at Texas and I think I struggled in that job like. Yeah, you were in China.

Meagen Anderson: 18:28

A lot, but I learned a ton and I think, because I went through that hardship and then ultimately got to go take this educator role, I had to still learn the same lesson about how to live life with a good relationship with alcohol, a healthy relationship, and in my case it's refraining right, it's just being abstaining from it and that's because the health benefits Scott were actually kind of frightening.

Scott: 18:55

What year did you go through that process?

Meagen Anderson: 18:57

So I stopped four years ago on New Year's Eve, so that would be the December 31st 2019. Just kind of, only because I am kind of a New Year's resolution sort of person, I was like, woo, if you're going to do something, start on the beginning of the year. So I stopped. I remember, and I just very, very bad hangover and my daughter had just turned one and it was like when she wasn't sleeping very much and it was really pushing myself mentally. I was working full time, moving cross country, having a toddler not much older, being in kind of a very difficult home situation. So it was just a very trying time and I remember like I don't know if this is the best time to stop drinking, but I'm going to go for it.

Meagen Anderson: 19:42

Then I did it for this first year and then COVID hit. Then everything went inside for a long time and that made it easier, but it made the internal changes happen so much faster, because when you're with one tiny group of people and you're going through that experience of not really being aware, I was drinking to the point that I think I wasn't even really experiencing much of reality as I could even experience it, which is shocking Because we're as humans we only see so little, like one one millionth of reality or something. But I was seeing so far below that line, like my level of conscientiousness was so low, because, unfortunately for me, I had a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol and I went through that experience of not having that besides the health benefits. I think it opened up my eyes to other things.

Scott: 20:41

So you started the one year no beer program and then after that one year was up, you just kind of kept going and then you hit thousand days and then you're good.

Meagen Anderson: 20:48

Yeah, but I would say I wasn't thinking in terms of a year when I started it. And when I started it I signed up for 30 days. I was like, okay, let's see if I can do one month and let's see how it goes. And the content was so good, it was very motivating and I had read a book called this Naked Mind by Annie Grace and it kind of was like a fun book to read because she actually says, and they're like go ahead and keep drinking while you read my book if you want to. And I think you heard giving me that permission to do that, Let me do it my way. And that was.

Meagen Anderson: 21:20

I think I read that book three months before I decided to do to try a challenge like a program which was one year, no beer. So that kind of like got me in the mood to sort of like start with something manageable and small, like what you did. And then I decided to do 90 days and I think from 90 I upgraded to six months and when I hit that six month mark I started thinking in terms of how many days I had been alcohol free and there was something so liberating about that that I knew I was going to make it to a year which I had never in my life since I had become an adult age person drinking alcohol pretty regularly. I had never contemplated that before, so I was like whoa, this is insane. And like it was just. Life was more enjoyable. I felt like I was just experiencing it in a more healthy way, I guess, and I felt better and I just felt like I could give people more love and attention.

Scott: 22:12

It's so interesting because, when you think about it, probably had a couple beers junior senior year that's when you start and maybe in high school, and this year I just hit 50 and thinking to myself oh my God, we're talking 34 years of constantly beating your body up with just immeasurable amounts of alcohol, unnecessary amounts of alcohol.

Meagen Anderson: 22:31

Yeah, I mean more than it was essential back in colonial times to like stay alive or whatever. You know what I mean. Can't drink the water.

Meagen Anderson: 22:38

Basically it's like that's when it was necessary, so now it's just like, it's all like, just know what it is when you do it and it's also a great solvent. So it's a great solvent when you're dissolving, say, expensive grapes into it and letting those flavors naturally dissolve in there. I mean what a cool thing to think about same with beer. Right Like, create this sort of liquid from our grain store and it becomes a. I have this amazing book that I just got at the American Home Brew Association. It's called Sacred, herbal and Healing Beers and I just think this is so fascinating because I'm like this is plant medicine.

Scott: 23:13

Wow.

Meagen Anderson: 23:14

That's like a lot. That's what we're seeing in the hemp beverage movement, right Like it's plant medicine.

Scott: 23:18

Yeah, essentially. Yeah, you're right.

Meagen Anderson: 23:19

That's what beer is, and I think non-alcoholic beer is very healthy. I drink it all the time and, like I never gain any weight, I never. I never have a hangover or a headache from. Most of the time I mean I can taste because of my sensory training and my desire. I think, especially for any beer, like I'm probably like crazy niche person in the space because of what? All the things I've done, you know, like I've made beverages with the biggest breweries in the world. I've actually gotten to help them formulate things you know. So I have this strange experience. And then for AF and NA beer, I mean I wrote a book on it, like I wrote the world's first book on AF and NA beer. I was like you know what I know so much about this dumb topic. I'm just going to write about it.

Scott: 24:01

And I'm going to put that in the show notes too.

Meagen Anderson: 24:03

Yes, please do. Yeah, thank you I. But as I wrote it and I have to say, as my team wrote it, I did not write this alone. There were so many amazing people, scott, that contributed to it Like wow. But as I was putting it together and seeing it come to a live, I'm like what an awesome thing to put out there. Like that's so cool, what a niche topic. But it's growing and when I got that book it reminded me of why I am so passionate about it. Like beer is just that's what we studied, right, that's what we know and appreciate about it.

Meagen Anderson: 24:36

Alcoholic beer, the same Like it was a delivery method for people in their grain store, in their spice house. It was a way to dispense medicine. I mean, that's how the Egyptians use it was for nourishment. They knew that. They knew that they were low alcohol beverages. But at that time you kind of needed to have fermentation going on or you were probably going to die because the water was not clean. You know, like, how could it be when you're living like that? You know so and I think, as people got more sophisticated, like it just got more specialty and there's so many cool things about beer and there's so many styles and those all really trace back to that story of how they were delivering some benefit or belief or whatever.

Meagen Anderson: 25:57

And I'm like now we know the effect of alcohol, let's adjust the operational system, let's educate the public and then let's encourage them to drink more beer because you can do it and it's healthy for you. Like, how do you think athletic brewing is getting their base of people? These are healthy people that love beer. They want to optimize their life and I think that that applies to whether you're running a marathon, to whether you want to have the best podcast out there. I think that all those things that people really want to see themselves do and achieve, they're probably better positioned to do when they're drinking mostly non-alcoholic beer. Let's say, if you're a beer drinker, or wine, or RTDs or spirits or whatever, and then blending in or substituting a fully alcoholic version or low alcoholic version when the occasion fits, because then you can appreciate it for what it is. That's tasting the history of it and that's where I think the future is going is that way.

Scott: 26:57

It's really interesting because the market, from a craft beer standpoint, is just littered with 8% gigantic IPAs and then you have the NA sec. It feels like there's nothing in the middle. I mean, I know there is, but it feels like there's nothing in the middle. But it's nice that this NA segment has so much to choose from. We're seeing spirits.

Meagen Anderson: 27:17

There's hemp derived now. So if you want to feel an alcohol adjacent thing with exponentially, if you want to talk about herbal beverages like-.

Scott: 27:26

Never in a million years thought you'd see that.

Meagen Anderson: 27:27

This is basically plant medicine gone mainstream, but the public isn't aware yet, so it's kind of transitioning out. But they're finding an intersection, for whatever reason, of people that are in the alcohol beverage space that want to either substitute four or five nights a week or they're going all the way. Either way there's a person in that. They're all in that space really, so it's the entire Alkbev industry. So I'm projecting it to be valued about $25 billion over the next seven to 10 years, just to hemp derived, and that's only through the traditional channels. It's also got probably an exponentially larger rate of growth. If you look at the e-commerce side of it, it's crazy, the e-commerce. I mean women are buying the stuff online and shipping it to their house because it's discreet, they don't want to go to dispensaries.

Scott: 28:14

Yes.

Meagen Anderson: 28:15

They see their THC consumption as private and they want that information protected. And I think the sooner that the industry realizes that and invests in that message to the consumer that they can just swap out their at home drinking for these other beverages. And I think they have to see if it fits for them too, because I mean hemp can probably give some people headaches. It probably has a certain effect on people. That's all different. So they should start with a low dose option, at like a 2.5 milligram, and then find what they like. But the beverages taste good. They taste like RTDs, they taste like their analog.

Scott: 28:49

Yeah, I did. I forgot what episode it was, but I had the high tide boys on, yes, josh and Shay. I know you've worked with them a little bit when we did some tasting. I did not get any samples from them because that's illegal, but let's just say I had another friend who sent me some and I did try it. I will say that you definitely do need to pace yourself and understand that side, that category, because I had two you said you had two, five milligrams.

Scott: 29:15

Yeah, five milligrams. And I remember staring at the couch loving my pillows I was just in awe of my pillows.

Meagen Anderson: 29:23

Yeah, that's pretty, depending on your tolerance level, I mean, and your own individual body. Remember this is connected to your endocannabinoid system. It's a secondary nervous system in your body and the plant molecule fits into the endocannabinoid system, kind of like a lock and key. So when that cannabinoid goes in there now it's part of you, it's a medicine. It's bringing you into homeostasis, which can take you to the couch, my friend. It can take you to the refrigerator, it can do all the things. So you have to be aware of its impact. You have to know that also, it does have an impact in the brain, because there are receptors for this in our brain that fit with this, which is why Delta 9THC is one of those. There are others, but that's the one people classically think about when they think about doing using these things. So that's what I'm doing now. I'm just educating people about the category and what they can do. But let me also say back to Josh and Che from Hi-Tide they are going to be doing hemp derived. So I think I can say that Hopefully I'm not in trouble, guys, but we can give it to you because under the same bill that lets you buy CBD at the grocery store that farm bill right now allows for the Delta 9THC from hemp and we can synthesize it too. So basically we are able to take just like in hops. We can make a hops extract and you can make beer just bitter, you can make it just aromatic. We can separate those things now so that technology exists in hemp so we can take CBD, let's say add a catalyst to it, so put something in it, kind of like a chemical reaction. If you will and there's natural versions of this you can do it with hydrogen peroxide, for example, as a catalyst. So you can use different types of methods to make this stuff and then you convert it into THC, delta 9, which is the same stuff you and other products. It'll make other things too. It's kind of like a fermentation.

Meagen Anderson: 31:17

If you think about it like that, you're creating a reaction. So you've got to kind of know what's in there. So the good producers have kind of figured this out. They're like for Tosa. I have a lot of respect for their company. They've done a lot of research and they have figured out how to kind of separate these things and give you just those aspects you want which people traditionally think about when they think about they've ever tried marijuana, in the sense that they've thought about it Like people have smoked a joint in their life or something like that. That's the same molecule, but you had a really high dose because you inhaled it. So when you take micro amounts of this stuff and you put them in your body in conjunction with CBD, let's say, or CBN, which are other non-intoxicating cannabinoids, you put all those together.

Meagen Anderson: 32:02

Well, now you are administering something to yourself that has going to have a reaction for you and you should see if those are beneficial, because there's some scientific studies that suggest some of these have a positive impact on some people. I mean, I just think everybody has to try it for themselves and if you get a headache, I'd probably back off. That could just be a reaction that you have where you have maybe an allergy to it. Maybe try another dose, try another brand, but if it gives you a headache a few times, maybe it's not for you. And then you just know hey, I don't take aspirin or ibuprofen, maybe you just don't take cannabis-infused products with THC because you're probably having some sort of negative reaction to that. I just pay attention to what you're taking and see how you feel, but for a lot of people. They feel good, they feel relaxed, they feel social, they can have it with their friends.

Meagen Anderson: 32:51

And I think drinks are a great mechanism, a delivery system for this, because you don't go to someone's house to split a gummy, as my friend Joe likes to say. We take a six-pack, we take a bottle of wine, we take drinks. That's how we connect with people, that's how we commune with them. So I think beverages are a great mechanism for this. And Lee, one of my colleagues from Boston Beer, who I'm in this strategic alliance with and we're building just this phenomenal business at Hop Forward around hemp beverages, and she is just a genius and she's created all these really cool podcasts that you should check out, called the Enlightened Buzz, and they're a few minutes long but they're educational and they're educating people on what is THC. What are these products going to do to me? If I take them, how am I going to feel? So she's doing this really cool education. That's actually just from the perspective of someone. That's like I might be looking for a replacement for alcohol.

Meagen Anderson: 33:53

I kind of don't want to feel hungover because it kind of steals my time and I read about its negative health impacts and I feel better when I take breaks, or maybe I want to take some breaks, and then once in a while I'm going to have a glass of wine, but I'm going to pretty much live this other lifestyle. It's like being keto or being paleo or whatever. You can pulse it in to your life and I think that's how everybody kind of starts. But these beverages on just the NA side have to go hand in hand with that, because to your point, you drink two high tides and you're not in its five milligrams apiece. That might be too much for you, which is why.

Meagen Anderson: 34:30

That's why I think people should expect to see these things in smaller formats and happy this client of ours that we've worked with at Hop Forward. We have a 7.5 ounce can, which for women, is kind of a perfect size. It's sort of the way the mini Coca-Cola's exist. I don't want to drink a whole can, I just want to drink a little bit and it feels like a cocktail and looks like a cocktail and can be served like a cocktail, even in a wine glass or mixed with a plain seltzer water, and you can walk around and have it in your Yeti.

Meagen Anderson: 34:59

And I think they're finding out how they can put it all together and how it works for them, and she's really driving a lot of that. So I think her work and her knowledge and her ability to grow brand she's a very good sales leader as well has led to her being very passionate about educating the public on cannabis beverages as an alternative. And as she's doing that, she's simultaneously having this journey. Where she's actually doing this, she's seeing these beverages have a positive benefit and I think she would be happy to share that story. But it's just been a really cool thing to experience with her, because I know that feeling from a different perspective, but really from being like I think I'm done forever, and that was four years ago and I haven't had any alcohol since then.

Meagen Anderson: 35:48

My health is off the charts good. I'll be 42 in February and I feel great. I feel like I could be my own daughter sometimes compared to before. But I also see I went from having a broken heart to having my heart fulfilled and realizing all these amazing things that I have and just personally and having an amazing support system of people that really stepped up and cared about me and have helped me grow my business or mentored me or just let me share my story with them, and I appreciate that, because I actually ran into Jim Cook recently. Oh yeah yeah, I got to give him a hug and I got to tell him about what I was up to and he said something really cool to me. He said, megan, you know, you could have gone one of two ways in life. You definitely could have gone up, or you could have gone the other way and you chose up. He's like good job. And I really appreciated that, because that's the culture of building, like these people that were great role models to me. That's awesome.

Meagen Anderson: 36:53

Okay, like I'm the sober person on vacation now How's everybody doing? And it was like really kind of funny for me, like dude dancing sober had never done that before. What is that, you know just like what is that?

Meagen Anderson: 37:07

as an adult, I know would never do that so, but, like you know, the things I realized about myself were just sort of like fears of being like socially awkward were some of the characteristics that actually I think people were telling me they really appreciated about me, which is like I could be more loving and fun because I wasn't, you know, kind of just consumed in myself and I didn't think alcohol at the end of the day, turned me into a better person either. I found I had more conflict in my relationships as a result of that and like kind of like things. I just saw patterns in my life developing that I wasn't very excited about and I was just like. I thought I was going to be able to do more by now but I thought, well, maybe let's just inventory your life and see what's happening and try to change things up a little. When I did, I would, you know, got some pretty pretty decent results.

Scott: 37:52

Amazing, amazing stories we were talking earlier. Like you, just recently got married and one of the greatest stories I've ever heard. It made me tear up a little. Could just give a brief summary of that, because it's it's like a magical story, yeah thanks, yeah, I appreciate it.

Meagen Anderson: 38:04

We call it like an epic love story. So yeah, I had a childhood love, I guess you know we met when we were in middle school. We used to like play basketball in my driveway and all the things you know. I moved away and we just sort of lost touch in life and everything and 25 years later I had become sober and was, you know, kind of my, my family with my kids. That was going through a lot of change, put a lot of pressure on our relationship and we were going to go separate ways and I was ready to kind of just I couldn't believe it, I was going to have to start all over again at my age, you know. But I was prepared to do that and then kind of said a prayer a first prayer I'd said in a very long time for God to fix my love life and my first love kind of reemerged and as a friend and a support person, I think we helped each other through a lot.

Meagen Anderson: 38:54

You know his. He had a death in his immediate family, his sister passed away very unexpectedly. It was very hard on him. He had been through a really tough relationship and divorce and stress and he also has a very stressful job. He's a nuclear reactor operator, so you know he didn't like shlub around. After high school he went into the Navy and became part of their nuclear program.

Meagen Anderson: 39:18

He spent two years under in a submarine, so like I used to be the most interesting person in alcohol, like background and knowing a lot about beer. But I'm like talk to this guy Like he works at a nuclear reactor, Like there's like no people that he would ever meet, that, do that, and he's just a great guy.

Meagen Anderson: 39:35

And we just went. When we'd gone through these hard things together, we were like are we crazy enough to think that like we could have like a marriage and like be together, like we just still had that same love. You know, we shared a lot of cool experiences together when we were younger. Like divine things that we thought were sort of signs to us, that kind of brought us back together again because we remembered them from when we were young, you know, and that became real love and we got a lot of counseling and advice and we got married a couple of weeks ago and we have six kids between the two of us.

Meagen Anderson: 40:06

And I also live part time in Michigan and he's in Illinois because of his job and family. So it's the craziest life that I never realized I would get when I said that prayer. But I am so grateful and he is just, yeah, an amazing human, very supportive of my endeavors and really just a good leader in the community. He's a JV basketball coach and I'm like his assistant coach now, like I was, like I can make a good assistant coach, like I can do that. You know, I like supportive. I'm like I don't have to know all the rules, you know, but I love basketball and I get to see him accomplishing these crazy time capsule dreams, because I don't really remember him from, you know. Besides, like 25 years ago and we were very young.

Meagen Anderson: 40:50

So it's a very new and interesting perspective on life, but a beautiful one, and we're both really grateful for the opportunity and the challenge of raising six kids in a blended home, right? So it's like you got to kind of I get to be that good assistant coach. You know you're not really trying to parent someone else's kids and you know you don't necessarily want them trying to parent your kids, but you want them to be very loving and supportive, and so what we find this easy for us is just like demonstrating our love and like being happy and having a good home. So I changed my last name, my name, to an easy, from an easy last name to a hard last name, from Anderson to Kester, and then decided to, you know, marry, like the love of my life, which was like such a great, such a great epic thing that was, I felt, like very, a really great gift.

Scott: 41:39

That's amazing. Thanks, that's amazing. It's such a great story. I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. So we go through this whole period where you're not drinking, and when does transcending trauma come out?

Meagen Anderson: 41:50

Yeah, so, and that was about that was 2022. So I guess I would have been in two years of being alcohol free. And that's when that like rat magnet movement happened, when all those women spoke out on Instagram about you know some basically being sexually harassed or abused in the alcohol industry. So I think that, from a gender perspective, I think there's a lot of you know, a lot of openness there to, for people of you know all affiliations and all gender identifications that kind of participate in that. So it kind of became this really interesting community of people that spoke out and I just saw hurt in people.

Scott: 42:25

So for folks who are not familiar with the rat magnet, a woman had been, had she been sexually assaulted.

Meagen Anderson: 42:31

Her rat, I think really horribly harassed, but like abused I mean she was used yes. She was really traumatized. She described her pain and the impact that these events had on her life, and then more women came out with that same. So like the details to me were like were like what.

Meagen Anderson: 42:48

They were all awful because obviously somebody felt like they had been, they had been harmed to the point that, like they had been traumatized and like when people write about their story, and that encouraged a lot of women to write about their story, and I think, you know, there's always people that I think take advantage of that too. I think there were some stories that were probably not all true or maybe people were challenging them or saying, like you know, I think it created a lot of conversations like that needed to happen and I think in some cases, like highlighted worse, culture needed to be fixed. You know, but I did think there was. It got really bad for a while. I think it got to a point where it was like a lot of over, like, wow, everyone's pain was out there and it was just the industry did not react well to it. I think there was like a really Absolutely not.

Scott: 43:36

The industry didn't know how to act to all of those things because society was they get caught a lot of people off guard because the the brewing industry is such a tight knit group of folks and no brewery hates another brewery. There's no rival breweries, everybody's friends and but a lot of them had their own little secrets and those secrets had never come to light until you know. This woman posted yeah.

Meagen Anderson: 43:57

And it was a crazy time. I mean, there was a lot of growth, there was a lot of alcohol. I think when that good beer hunting article came out, yes, that mark, uh, that mark wrote on the culture of over drinking. You know, when I met him and we connected over what that lifestyle was like, it was easy for some people to get totally overwhelmed by that and I think for some of us who are more prone than others, like that's just a risk that's associated and being in that environment where a lot of heavy drinking and maybe what we call binge drinking, just there were a lot of opportunities for that, I suppose. So you know, there's, uh, you know, people that I don't think and it was ever encouraged, but it's just a reality of how a certain percentage of people would likely act when, when presented that opportunity. So I think when you looked at that, we connected over like man, you know we'd both been really impacted by this and I was kind of like this is like my comeback story from alcohol. You know, like I want to give back.

Meagen Anderson: 44:54

I actually the reason I created aficionado is because I wanted to fund transcending trauma, because I want to teach everybody in the industry. I want everybody in the industry to have access to my toolbox because I was like I've got to find a way to give out, like if somebody's hurting, like in this industry, as a result of alcohol or alcohol induced event, like please come to me somehow and like I can at least get you in touch with the same people that helped me. I want that information out there and I think for me, meditation and the understanding of my own consciousness and development and having support systems, like a teacher that I could talk to whenever I wanted to, that was like trauma informed, would talk to me about it as long as I wanted to. There's group meditations and all this stuff and then combining that with a program like one year, no beer. That taught me about alcohol, really taught me about myself, because it made me ask. And then I did a lot of personal development and psychologist and like all the things.

Meagen Anderson: 45:50

You don't have to go to that level, I think, for everybody else. I just, if you're hurting, come to me, I'll show you my toolbox. You might not want everything, take the hammer, take the screwdriver, but if, whatever you want, if you have something broken, I might know a way or a program because, like I was hurting for a long time and I also was impacted by overconsumption of alcohol. So like, if you, if we have that in common you don't have to tell me your trauma. I'll just tell you what mine was kind of like.

Meagen Anderson: 46:21

If people ask or sometimes they're just like I just want to know how you got alcohol free Like they care a lot about that, I think, but there's so much more to that.

Meagen Anderson: 46:29

So I think for me giving, having a way to keep the med, so I have a meditation meeting tonight. Like we've actually trained already eight or nine women in this meditation technique and so and I've been able to fund a lot of that through aficionado and companies like BrewDog, for example, that have invested in my program and are taking it out to companies like Total Wine and Whole Foods and Andrew's Distributing and talking to people about getting trained and certified in AF and NA beer, because for all the reasons I just talked about, like it's going to help the category grow. You know it's a. It's a really big opportunity. I think the whole AFNA category is about $35 billion. It has seven to 10 years to mature and I want to help the that industry grow and when in doing so, I want to give back to people that are impacted by this or hurting, and that's why I started transcending trauma.

Scott: 47:19

That's amazing. It's so great Thanks to that in the show notes as well, which brings us to aficionado. So you and I are both certified cisterns, so that is certified in all things beer.

Meagen Anderson: 47:31

I'm a BJCP judge also, yeah.

Scott: 47:34

Which is amazing. That's a super hard one. I haven't even tackled that one. You know, there's all these certifications out there. I have a WSET2 for wine, but there are all these other ones out there, but there isn't one for non-alcohol or AFTA. Until you come along.

Meagen Anderson: 47:49

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's why I created it. So my very last job at Boston Beer was I ran beer education from North America. It was a really cool job and I am so honored that I got to be in that position because I got to build training programs that basically directly added revenue to the company. We were the type of company that invested in training. So we saw deploying privatized training to clients like retailers that wanted to know more about the category. We would go train them how to pass the cistern exam, but through the lens of Boston Beer. So we had frameworks for training. We had a lot of resources. We could buy all the samples you know. So it wasn't like a traditional dry-sponsored training. It was very personalized and it helped them achieve certification, which ultimately helped those organizations better spot opportunity in craft beer.

Meagen Anderson: 48:37

So I took that same model and made a Fisianado for what we call AFNA, af and NA right. So in Dr Keith Via, who has Saria Brewing, which is a really also created Blue Moon, so a few people might know of that. But Keith is the one that encouraged me to create the program. I knew he was making a 0.0 beer and it was really good and he had invested a lot in it. Keith's a pretty smart guy and he tends to know where the market's going, so he said you should make this. I realized that we needed more resources and we needed to step it up a little bit. So I basically just hired a technical beer writer, katie Nishaka, from Odell Brewing, and then she went on to work for the US Fish and Wildlife Department now and she's a forensic scientist, but she's also a hops expert and a really, really excellent technical writer with a master's degree in science. So she is very good at writing technical stuff and I am a technical person.

Meagen Anderson: 49:39

So I knew I wanted to build it like a Ciceroan Level 1, let's say, like a beer server. I wanted it to just. If you took it one day, you would get ROI from it like within a few days. I wanted it to be meaningful enough that I did this program and it helped me learn a lot so I can recognize I could better spot opportunity. Today I sold five more cases of stuff. Today I helped five more people because I saw the guy order a water and I asked him if he wanted any beer and he was like oh yeah, I didn't see that on your menu. Or hey, I saw somebody who asked me about NA and I told them about the benefits and now they came back three weeks later and that's all they're drinking and I sold them more. Or tonight I encouraged a drink, a beer, drink, a NA kind of campaign thing, and I sold eight beers instead of four.

Meagen Anderson: 50:34

And I mean so I think that and it's for premium eyes because it's harder to make it actually requires a lot of. It's pretty hard because you're really kind of creating typically an analog of a product for a lot of brands. They want to put their name on it, so they want it to taste like their stuff. So that's actually a technical challenge, right? Because normally speaking, with Kraft you just keep ruining the tank until you get something you like, and that's the way we're reverse engineering that we're saying we want it to be like something that tastes like a Sam Adams, for example. That's hard. Or like a Deschutes. It's hard to do that.

Scott: 51:11

I mean alcohol is a component of taste. It does give a certain amount of flavor to whatever beverage it is, and it fully extracts it. It's not going to taste exactly like the original. So you've created the program. You worked with Ray Daniels from the Ciceroen program as well.

Meagen Anderson: 51:27

So I consulted I actually to Chris who was running the Ciceroen program, and I also talked to other people that worked at Ciceroen or with them and to a lot of master Ciceroens. So most of the master Ciceroens helped me. For example, mirella Amato wrote my non-alcoholic beer and food pairing part of my section. I consulted with Neil Witte who is a draft expert on the draft piece. He sent me David Quain's work. I've consulted over the years with people like Grant Wood who we worked with at Boston Beer. I mean Grant is an expert in many topics and I would say a lot of the things I've done at Hop Forward. I learned a lot from Grant and he's very well connected. He's helped to make a lot of introductions for me and just been really fun to work with and still be friends with. We actually went and ate at a linea together in Chicago for his birthday one year, grant Wood, you know I think I saw that on Facebook.

Scott: 52:18

It was so cool.

Meagen Anderson: 52:19

I cried during the dinner because it was so emotional and I bought the full alcohol pack and I was back when I was still drinking. So I'm sure it was a very intoxicating, but it was actually an unforgettable one, just one that I think, when I talk about people that can moderate or are able to do that man, good for you if you can, I think that's cool because that was such a memorable experience that I think was totally reason to imbibe in something beautiful. That was the most well curated, coolest meal. Actually, another friend was there, megan. She used to work at Boston Beer. She was there at this dinner.

Scott: 52:58

That's awesome. It was a really memorable reunion.

Meagen Anderson: 53:00

I got to be a part of a really cool group that night and it was a very people that really appreciate food and drink. So when I created a Fiscianano, I actually didn't want it to be like dogging the alcohol industry, if you know what I mean. I kind of created it because I value the alcohol industry. I don't want my story necessarily to overshadow the fact that the alcohol category beverage category should still exist. I just think that people are going to be more aware of their habits and I think we're starting to see the result of that in the US market. So we're seeing a shift in those consumers because of everything that's happened, primarily COVID it was such a big thing. Then, of course, prohibition 2.0, which is sort of the legalization of cannabis and cannabis products, I think is also influencing that. But it's a moderation movement. People are doing it because they don't want to be hung over. If that's affecting the industry, then that's telling you who some of those primary consumers are and they're looking for more options. So the industry is going to evolve into that. But I knew the alcohol industry needs to grow and I actually think this is a big category for it to grow if some of the brands begin to invest in this innovation, like Anheuser-Busch was. They're investing. They just invested millions and millions of dollars, I think between 35 and 50 million maybe in new de-alcoolization equipment, because they are actually behind on their own. Just like operationally it's really hard to make that much NA beer. They're just capacity-wise and other brand focuses, depending on the market where you're at, I think, of influence that growth. But it is happening. They recognize it because in Europe 15% of the beer market is non-alcoholic, so here it's 1%. So it's already happened there because they have more of a moderate approach definitely more of like the—and the NAB Labs are also growing there. That category of low alcohol and no alcohol is also growing exponentially in Europe, especially in the UK. So they're also going through this big moderation mindset shift. I think we're going to see it impact the industry.

Meagen Anderson: 55:11

My thought was create something that bolts onto those programs. I didn't go recreate beer styles 101 or wine styles 101, let's say. I said here is a training on alcohol-free and non-alcoholic processes, ingredients, history, specific to that niche, so that it bolts onto the other product, so that if you have a Cabernet I don't have to retrain you about that. You can talk in depth about that from your training. But you can now talk about that specific piece of the non-alcoholic that bolts on and that allows you to sell more and generate more revenue, and that consumer is looking for that. So if you're going to focus on that as a business, I'm challenging businesses to do that.

Scott: 55:57

That's awesome. I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited that somebody is doing what you're doing. It's something long overdue. I'm super happy for you. I look forward to reading your book. I read my preview, but I'll be getting my copy. I'll link that in the show notes as well All the links for aficionado in there as well. If people want to keep up with what you're doing, how do they keep up with you?

Meagen Anderson: 56:19

I'd say follow me on LinkedIn. If you want to follow where I think the best content's coming from, go to the aficionado certification program LinkedIn page and follow us there. Hop forward consulting the Enlightened Buzz, which is Lee's work. Please follow that. It's really really good content. It's so good.

Scott: 56:39

Okay.

Meagen Anderson: 56:40

I'm going to go to the link and me at Megan Anderson on LinkedIn, but also on LinkedIn just on Megan Anderson, which is a great way to follow me. I do plan to start building more content on LinkedIn and connecting with people on that platform.

Scott: 56:55

It's M-E-A-G-E-N Anderson.

Meagen Anderson: 56:58

Yes, thank you, scott. Thank you, yes. M-e-a-g-e-n Anderson. Yes, an alcohol-free aficionadoscom is our website. You can get the link to our book there, which is on Amazon Kindle, which is the world's first book on AF and NA beer called the AFNA Beer Certified Learning Manual.

Scott: 57:17

Definitely check that out. The spelling is very specific. I typed in just a regular Megan Anderson. I wasn't thinking. I know how to spell your name Megan Anderson and then aficionado. What popped up was Megan Anderson, the MMA fighter who apparently is an aficionado in kicking ass. That showed up first. Don't make that mistake.

Meagen Anderson: 57:37

Hey, that's kind of funny because I've seen that before. Yes, how you spell Megan does matter on this one.

Scott: 57:44

Yes, exactly right, she's apparently in it. The first article was like an aficionado in ass kicking.

Meagen Anderson: 57:50

I was like oh all right, I actually feel cool, like way cooler now, anyway, because now I feel like it's kind of like what people see, then they'll find the real me, but they can't forget that part. Yeah, that's so good.

Scott: 58:02

I'm pretty sure that I am not the coolest Scott Carney.

Meagen Anderson: 58:04

Yeah, I think you are. I definitely am.

Scott: 58:08

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming out today and going through all your successes Personally and professionally. It's been an amazing ride today Just listening to that stuff. I'm so happy for you. It's awesome to see you. You make me smile. Thanks, You're the best. We'll definitely keep in touch.

Meagen Anderson: 58:25

Let me know when you want to talk live. Let's go through a 90 day challenge plan for you. I'll help you find a good set list.

Scott: 58:29

Absolutely. Thank you so much for being on.

Meagen Anderson: 58:36

There's a lot we can cover. It might be multiple podcasts. Part six the saga continues. We've got a trilogy going on, yeah.

Scott: 58:41

Part six Part nine Part nine Part nine Part nine Part nine Part nine Part nine Part nine Part. Nine Part nine Part. Nine Part nine Part. Nine Part nine.